Kevin Osborne responding to Jared Schy
Thanks for sharing your opinion. You have made some really good points. As part of the debate, I want to inquire more about your stance. If you have time to respond today, that would be great as Xianying and I will write up the results and blog about the experience.
1. You said that you disagree with Emissions Trading Schemes. I realize the carbon cap & trade has many flaws. I don't think it is the full solution either. It obviously cannot be. However, we need a transition, and I think that a carbon cap & trade can be first step to put a value on it and price it, and many more changes can happen afterwards. It could provide a tipping point, especially for society on what the market values. Since we are trying to mitigate catastrophic global climate change, can you elaborate on what kind of societal transformation solutions we would need to act timely and have large impact since carbon schemes seem to be out of the question for you?
2. I agree that grassroots action is very important. However, as I have seen working with JUCCCE, you have to work at all different levels with large corporations, venture funds, governments, and NGOs. I know I want to be an idealist about the situation, but I realize that we have take practical action at various different levels business, government, and community levels. We need various stakeholders involved. So I am little unclear - Do you believe that grassroots is the only method for effective change?
3. You made a strong claim that grassroots organizer against dirty energy were having success and national/ international climate organizers were not. Can you elaborate more on this point. How are you defining success?
1. You said that you disagree with Emissions Trading Schemes. I realize the carbon cap & trade has many flaws. I don't think it is the full solution either. It obviously cannot be. However, we need a transition, and I think that a carbon cap & trade can be first step to put a value on it and price it, and many more changes can happen afterwards. It could provide a tipping point, especially for society on what the market values. Since we are trying to mitigate catastrophic global climate change, can you elaborate on what kind of societal transformation solutions we would need to act timely and have large impact since carbon schemes seem to be out of the question for you?
2. I agree that grassroots action is very important. However, as I have seen working with JUCCCE, you have to work at all different levels with large corporations, venture funds, governments, and NGOs. I know I want to be an idealist about the situation, but I realize that we have take practical action at various different levels business, government, and community levels. We need various stakeholders involved. So I am little unclear - Do you believe that grassroots is the only method for effective change?
3. You made a strong claim that grassroots organizer against dirty energy were having success and national/ international climate organizers were not. Can you elaborate more on this point. How are you defining success?
Jared Schy's Reply
Just saw this last night. Really love that you've taken the time to a)read it and b)ask some really good and thoughtful questions. Part of the major value of these forums is that I feel we can respectfully challenge each other's views and strive for both of us to grow.
I want to get back to these questions in a thoughtful way and so I feel like I won't have the responses to them for a while. Well, at least a week--I've got to do some digging and thinking. Is that okay? While I know it's nice to have a finished report (I think you should finish it without my responses and we can make an addendum or something), I think the fact that each time we have these debates I'm inspired to plunge myself into the facts and intricacies of a new subject that I'm not so familiar with is more important.
One final word. I should admit that I think part of my views are informed by my emotional response to some of the subjects, which is not always backed up by logic and or facts, but rather, by attitudes and opinions I've heard before.
I think the key to becoming smarter and more informed is to remain skeptical about all things--even your own current beliefs until you examine them thoroughly yourself.
I want to get back to these questions in a thoughtful way and so I feel like I won't have the responses to them for a while. Well, at least a week--I've got to do some digging and thinking. Is that okay? While I know it's nice to have a finished report (I think you should finish it without my responses and we can make an addendum or something), I think the fact that each time we have these debates I'm inspired to plunge myself into the facts and intricacies of a new subject that I'm not so familiar with is more important.
One final word. I should admit that I think part of my views are informed by my emotional response to some of the subjects, which is not always backed up by logic and or facts, but rather, by attitudes and opinions I've heard before.
I think the key to becoming smarter and more informed is to remain skeptical about all things--even your own current beliefs until you examine them thoroughly yourself.
Shi Xiangying responding to Ian Siadak
Thank you a lot for your response to this debate, as we were always talking inside this small group, but in fact looking forward to more Chemical Reaction with other members.
I want to respond to your doubt about China's actions in Aviation. I did some research about Chinese airline companies. They have been making effort in the following aspects.
In sum, I can see many progress in Chinese Aviation, though the technology and mechanism are not so mature. I think China should make more efforts on the market mechanism and legal framework of carbon emission reductions. By some threat from EU's policy, I hope international pressure will force China to build their own law and mechanism in climate change.
Sources:
http://www.yzhbw.net/news/shownews-15_12059.dot
http://www.emca.cn/bg/hyxw/qt/20101125104508.html
http://www.gov.cn/jrzg/2010-06/12/content_1626912.htm
I want to respond to your doubt about China's actions in Aviation. I did some research about Chinese airline companies. They have been making effort in the following aspects.
- Improve Energy Efficiency
- Younger planes
- Improving equipment
- Attempt on biofuels
- Carbon Neutral Flights
In sum, I can see many progress in Chinese Aviation, though the technology and mechanism are not so mature. I think China should make more efforts on the market mechanism and legal framework of carbon emission reductions. By some threat from EU's policy, I hope international pressure will force China to build their own law and mechanism in climate change.
Sources:
http://www.yzhbw.net/news/shownews-15_12059.dot
http://www.emca.cn/bg/hyxw/qt/20101125104508.html
http://www.gov.cn/jrzg/2010-06/12/content_1626912.htm
Jared's Response to Kevin
This is my partial answer to question 2.
These come from an interview with Tim DeChristopher. They don't capture the full extend of my thoughts, especially around grassroots and environmental justice but they catch some other big thoughts. Essentially though, my plug for grassroots as the most important solution and place to organize is because I do not trust "solutions" designed by those who benefit from the current systems of power being in place (and thus have the power, when all goes to shit, to be fine). We need to prioritize working with communities who are MOST affected already. You know this with agriculture, right? Are we creating solutions to unsustainable agriculture in the labs? No, we're going out and finding ancient practices from indigenous people. These indigenous people most of the time happen also to be bearing the brunt of the already unfolding climate catastrophe.
Why do you think environmental movements, particularly in the US, have been so ineffectual in mobilising an effective response to the greatest crisis humanity faces?
I think it is because we are a nation of people who consume a lot, and have therefore become far too comfortable with the system to dare to change it. The main control the system has is through scaring people that they have too much to lose by challenging it, and that we need to hold on to what we have.
I think also the problem is that we have too many rich people in the leadership of the environmental movement, who have benefited from the status quo. It is hard to change the world when you have little personal investment in changing it.
At a US youth environmental conference, called Powershift in April 2011, you caused a stir when you said we should face up to the truth that we have already lost the battle against climate change. Can you say more about this and the challenges environmental movements now face?
Our challenge has changed. It is no longer about just reducing emissions. We have to work out how to hold on to our humanity as we head to increasingly difficult times.
The turning point for me was when Terry Root, a lead author of the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, told me privately after an event at Stanford University that it was too late to stop a climate crisis, that her generation had failed mine. I was shocked and asked why she had not said that on the public panel. And she said that she was scared that saying the truth would paralyse people. And it is true, what she said did first put me into a dark place of despair. I found myself mourning my own future, knowing it could be nothing like my parents. But sharing that grief with others, I found knowing the truth also empowered me to fight back in a more serious way.
I can see why scientists and environmentalists shy away from talking about the truth. No-one enters the world of climate science to help humanity through a grieving process. But we are at a time in our movement where we need to be honest about these things
How should confronting that truth of climate change shape our actions?
...So in all our actions we need to look to overturn these power structures. We should not be asking major corporations like Walmart or institutions like the military to be kinder and gentler. We need to start working now on putting in place power structures that share our values as we enter difficult times. When things get ugly, and access to resources becomes difficult, we want to have trust that those making decisions will act justly, and not just favour the strong. This will mean allying now not with people at the top who have caused the crisis; but with people at the bottom, in particular those who have suffered from climate change.
These come from an interview with Tim DeChristopher. They don't capture the full extend of my thoughts, especially around grassroots and environmental justice but they catch some other big thoughts. Essentially though, my plug for grassroots as the most important solution and place to organize is because I do not trust "solutions" designed by those who benefit from the current systems of power being in place (and thus have the power, when all goes to shit, to be fine). We need to prioritize working with communities who are MOST affected already. You know this with agriculture, right? Are we creating solutions to unsustainable agriculture in the labs? No, we're going out and finding ancient practices from indigenous people. These indigenous people most of the time happen also to be bearing the brunt of the already unfolding climate catastrophe.
Why do you think environmental movements, particularly in the US, have been so ineffectual in mobilising an effective response to the greatest crisis humanity faces?
I think it is because we are a nation of people who consume a lot, and have therefore become far too comfortable with the system to dare to change it. The main control the system has is through scaring people that they have too much to lose by challenging it, and that we need to hold on to what we have.
I think also the problem is that we have too many rich people in the leadership of the environmental movement, who have benefited from the status quo. It is hard to change the world when you have little personal investment in changing it.
At a US youth environmental conference, called Powershift in April 2011, you caused a stir when you said we should face up to the truth that we have already lost the battle against climate change. Can you say more about this and the challenges environmental movements now face?
Our challenge has changed. It is no longer about just reducing emissions. We have to work out how to hold on to our humanity as we head to increasingly difficult times.
The turning point for me was when Terry Root, a lead author of the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, told me privately after an event at Stanford University that it was too late to stop a climate crisis, that her generation had failed mine. I was shocked and asked why she had not said that on the public panel. And she said that she was scared that saying the truth would paralyse people. And it is true, what she said did first put me into a dark place of despair. I found myself mourning my own future, knowing it could be nothing like my parents. But sharing that grief with others, I found knowing the truth also empowered me to fight back in a more serious way.
I can see why scientists and environmentalists shy away from talking about the truth. No-one enters the world of climate science to help humanity through a grieving process. But we are at a time in our movement where we need to be honest about these things
How should confronting that truth of climate change shape our actions?
...So in all our actions we need to look to overturn these power structures. We should not be asking major corporations like Walmart or institutions like the military to be kinder and gentler. We need to start working now on putting in place power structures that share our values as we enter difficult times. When things get ugly, and access to resources becomes difficult, we want to have trust that those making decisions will act justly, and not just favour the strong. This will mean allying now not with people at the top who have caused the crisis; but with people at the bottom, in particular those who have suffered from climate change.
Ian's Response to Xiangying
Thanks for the response! Sorry I am just getting to this, the last two weeks have been very busy. I very much like the last point that you make. One reason why I like climate legislation with impacts on international markets is that it does not simply force the other countries into a system they do not want to be in. Countries can use the threat of international agreements to innovate beyond the requirements of these international carbon markets. Especially in countries like China, where there is so much innovation and energy coming up in society (as I have gathered from knowing all of you), I think that spurring this innovation by asking countries to take part in international markets is a good plan. However, I recognize that for some countries with less social and economic capital, trying to innovate beyond international market rules can be difficult or impossible.